Could Blindsight‘s Vampires Beat Twilight‘s Vampires in a Fair Fight?

Strangely, that actually seems to be a subject of discussion over at Spacebattles.com.

I mean, I’ve never read the Twilight books (those are the vamps that, er, sparkle, yes?), but seriously.  Is there any question?

This entry was written by Peter Watts , posted on Saturday January 23 2010at 08:01 am , filed under blindsight . Bookmark the permalink . Post a comment below or leave a trackback: Trackback URL.

64 Responses to “Could Blindsight‘s Vampires Beat Twilight‘s Vampires in a Fair Fight?”

  1. Like Serasti? How the hell is that ever going to be fair to the soft, shiny Twilight vamps? Well, there is the issue of their faces being so perfect that they’re noses are practically at right angles to their eyebrows, but still.

  2. The question is meaningless; Jukka Sarasti (and his kin) would make sure that it wasn’t a fair fight.

  3. Setup is horribly biased against Blindsight. 200,000 random humans made HSV means that statistically they are going to be extremely poor, uneducated (with nearly 1/5th of them being illiterate), spread across the age spectrum, with no organization.

    And some there either never read the book, or are completely ignorant of evolution if they think the HSV lost a “war”. Peaking in their off topic areas, calling it a creationist area may be accurate. At the very least theres some pretty heavy biases towards the american right with all the anti intellectual trappings that entails

  4. Seen on t-shirt recently: “And then Buffy staked Edward. The end.”

  5. Of course there is a “question”. BliVamps are hominid predators, and TwiVamps are “former humans” converted to vampirism. The TwiVamps possess what Jukka and his kind do not, that being the human memories and feelings of empathy and compassion, having been “prey” themselves before becoming predators.

    As we can see in human beings of today, those humans who have empathy, compassion and the knowledge of being in the “prey” position have more at stake from within than those vamps who are a different species evolved and biologically programmed as predators.

    Sparkly aura aside, the TwiVamps have the shapeshifting Quileute (Native Americans) who are able to wup Nomadic feral TwiVamp butt. There is more at stake for the “werewolves” to take on BliVamps rather than TwiVamps.

    And yes, I did read Twilight and New Moon, peer pressure and all.

    As we can see in our own lives, the flesh-eating humans, cannibals and predators end up at the losing end of the stick when those who possess reason tempered with compassion unite for a cause that is about survival, and not an inherent predatory instinct to consume.

    I am going to posit a mushy feely statement as another basis for my assertion, love for others trumps instinctive predation. Jukka is not about love for others, he is chemically chained by anti-Euclidians, holding back his blood-drinking drive, Edward et al, have the “red thirst” but able to control it themselves, in addition to forming loving bonds with one another and their “prey”.

    Jukka and his kind are more like the vamps in 30 Days of Night, while the True-Blood Sookie Stackhouse vamps are like the TwiVamps. Which vamps are having an easier time living with their food source? As well as getting other fringe benefits to boot?

    I am going to posit a sensual, sensory statement as another basis for my assertion, sex and the sex drive is also a factor for the TwiVamps over the BliVamps. Wow, not only are the prey of TwiVamps a source of pleasure for the “red thirst”, but the sexual drive is also a tantalizing source of feeding.

    So why do you fellas think sooooooooooooo many females are soooooooooooo into Vampires? Visually repelling Nosferatu aside, the long line of humanly vamps, so far, are the ones winning.

  6. ” Seen on t-shirt recently: “And then Buffy staked Edward. The end.” ”

    Too true, but first there would be multiple episodes of love lost, gained, lost again, and finally Edward would die (only to come back somehow the following season).

    Erm, but I state equivocally that I am NOT, I repeat NOT a Buffy fan. If I were, and I am definitely NOT NOT, Willow and Wesley (married in real life) might be my two favorite characters.

    (In other news, Kate is awake and smiling today. Saturday does indeed seem to be better than Friday.)

  7. @Chris in NY – (In other news, Kate is awake and smiling today. Saturday does indeed seem to be
    better than Friday.)

    That is really good news :)

  8. I guess it all comes down to prep time and if the Blindsight vamps have access to their anti-Euclideans, Otherwise, they could find themselves defeated by the very window frame that the Twilight vampires were busy giving them meaningful glances through.

  9. @keanani: You assume that Jukka and his buddies are sexually attracted by humans. That’s a tall order, to say the least. Jukka is a different species; we’re talking dolphins and sharks here.

    I too have seen “30 days of night” and that stroke me as the most realistic take to date of the vampire myth. Intelligent prey can only be hunted by even more intelligent predators, and no amount of empathy and love would protect the stag when the wolves are closing in. The fact that Edward and his buddies used to be humans is not to their advantage. Jukka and his ilk are human hunters. And they’re damn good at it.

  10. Given the scenario as described, I’d expect Jukka Sarasti’s Horde to wipe the slate. The vast majority of those 200,000 are redundant, but it doesn’t matter – those that are capable of acting are just too damn smart, and a fair fight means an entirely different thing to Sarasti. It means you won’t know he’s out to get you until it’s all over. It means you’ll never even know he exists. Those things are walking superhuman intelligences and pure sociopaths. I’d expect one of them – probably one already in a position of power – to rapidly see a winning strategy that’s only obvious to baseline humans in hindsight, and wipe out the competition before the poor bastards even realize anything’s amiss.

    Any talk of comparing physical attributes is meaningless, and saying the sparkly ones might win due to strength or speed or supernatural abilities is a classic example of bringing a knife to a gunfight. Twilight’s vampires are just people with superpowers; Homo Sapiens Vampiris is _something else_.

    (I haven’t read Twilight, although the movie was on television while my eyes were open. But Jukka Sarasti scares the living crap out of me.)

    Anyway, no. There’s no question whatsoever. As I’m sure you already know!

  11. @Laur

    The taxonomy of the vamps (Homo Sapiens Vampirus) means they are a subspecies, not a separate species. They should at least be physically capable of interbreeding with humans. And unless I misunderstood the back story, then some of them did, and their descendants are our sociopaths and autistics. The stuff up on the site says thats where they found the genes to bring them back.

    Of course, theres a gross difference between having sex with a person and not regarding them as prey.

  12. “but seriously. Is there any question?”

    None at all. But another question then supersedes that one: which vampires would you *want* to win?

    Oh – no question there, either, come to think of it. :-)

    Goodnight, Edward – it’s been soooooo nice having you around.

    Not.

  13. @Laur: “You assume that Jukka and his buddies are sexually attracted by humans. That’s a tall order, to say the least. Jukka is a different species; we’re talking dolphins and sharks here.”

    Sorry, no. :) I clearly stated that BliVamps were hominid predators, of a different species than humans and vampiristic humans…”those vamps who are a different species evolved and biologically programmed as predators.” I merely pointed out that the TwiVamps having been “formerly purely human” are now vampiric human, and NOT an entirely different species (for some virus is not going to make one species become another overnight, if at all, as the spacebattle scenario may imply, for some).

    Sorry, no. I am not assuming that Jukka (and his buddies), if indeed this anti-social, individualistic hominid predator does have buddies at all, or friends, “are sexually attracted by humans”.

    I asserted that the Twilight Vampires, along with the True-Blood Vampires, and the very long line of literary and movie fanged-monsters have been having quite an easy time with sexually willing human females. I am assuming, based upon the apparent evidence (Twilight, Dracula, Underworld, Sookie Stackhouse…and all of the tons of “romance novels” about the “paranormal” that we see on bestseller lists), that human females have a sexual attraction to Vampires.

    I will concede that 30 Days of Night and Jukka type along with Nosferatu do not fit in to that. However, I assume that those life forms that were human and had the sexual drive as humans for humans, even if they are “converted to Vampirism”, will still have that attraction and drive.

    It is the difference between those Vampires born human vs. those Vampires who are biologically a different species.

    Dolphins and sharks? So it is a difference between a mammal and a fish? I will go with the mammal trumping the fish. I am thusly assuming that you are equating the intelligent, sentient, cunning, socially communing warm-blooded mammal, Flipper (human), as being trumped by the pure predatory, solitary, not highly sentient, fish with big sharp teeth and is basically an eating machine (Jukka type Vampire)?

    There have been cases where Flipper and his/her buddies have body-slammed and snout-rammed the life out of a shark.

    My assertion was that human females were sexually attracted to Vampires, as the fear of being preyed upon seems to be easily swayed by some sort of erotic thrall inducement inherent in these two-fanged blood thirsting creatures. :)

    Funny thing, I do not even see Jukka as “a him and his ilk”. I actually felt sorry for his demise, even though he is a super-badass predator that any and all humans should fear. But humans, well, not all thank goodness, are the cattle that they are made out to be. I will have to re-read Peter’s book, for the third time, to see if I missed any gleaning as to whether there would or could be interaction between Blindsight type Vampires and humans-well, Peter’s humans are a mix of anti-social deviants, re-tooled more than run-of-the-mill humans…

    Yes Laur, I agree with you on the Vampires in 30 Days of Night. Those seemed to me the most realistic too. I am currently reading George R.R. Martin book “Fevre Dream”, with Vampires that are somewhat between Twilight’s and Blindsight’s, and these Vampires are descended from predatory ancestors that see humans as cattle.

  14. Just wondering: do you think near-sightedness would be an advantage for Blindsight vampires? I used to play basketball without my glasses and was a good shot despite the goal being little more than a vague smudge– a cross held out in front of me at more than 5 ft would have been nothing but a blur.

  15. Spacebattles never fails to amaze. In this case the terminology is worth checking the thread out. Twilight vampires are called Twampires, which sounds both obscene and contemptuous. Meanwhile, Blindsight vampires are christened Blampires.

    Blampires! So evocative of Blacula, the greatest supernatural blaxploitation flick of all time (and a solid vampire movie on its own merits). A clear if subliminal tribute to Mr. Watts creation.

    While SB.com both openly and in their nomenclature are clearly on the side of Homo Sapiens Whedonis it isn’t going to happen. Blampires can not work together and kill each other on sight. The Twampires have an organized culture dating back centuries and can coordinate against the new threat. Plus there is the sparkle factor. Twampires are beautiful and romantic, Blampires are disturbing and sociopathic. Humanity is going to side quickly and not to the benefit of Whedonis.

    Which raises the question of how they were able to overthrow humanity at the end of Blindsight. They can’t actually coordinate or cooperate, or is that something that could be moderated via electronic communications? But that, as they say in the Conan movies, is a story for another time.

  16. Robertoelgrande said “But that, as they say in the Conan movies, is a story for another time.”

    I just heard they’re remaking Conan with the dreadlocked dude from stargate atlantis as you know who.

    But regarding blampires vs twampires I don’t even think that’s a contest. In an arena fight, blampires. In a stealth/jungle/i’m not ripping off predator situation, blampires. In a ‘who would win out over time’ it’d the blampires. Provided they had their anti-euclidean (that’s in spell checker but deconversion isn’t!?) goodness of course.

  17. Honestly, who gives a rat’s ass? The whole twilight memeplex is a juggernaut of unending HORSESH#T. Carry on suffering young girls unto this crap and weep when they’re older and your sons have to date them.

    Vamps were cool until hollywood rediscovered them. So might have been zombies. Now just plain sick of the whole bagload of underworld / goth / apocalyptic tripe…

    Please write a story where sarasti hunts every character in TWL for sport. THEN we’ll talk…

  18. Actually, seeing as it’s the subject at hand, I wonder if Peter has any updates on State of Grace? I’m not above being given another teaser or two if he wants to add a little more to the In Progress section …

    Lodore

  19. This is basically a “do brains beat brawn” question. To which the answer is “have a beefsteak”.

  20. I’m having difficulty believing there’s a debate ranging over who’d win in a contest that pits genuinely frightening (read: efficient) predatory hominids against morally paralyzed depressives who feel compelled to play with their food.

    Pass the cake, I’m going back to Portal.

  21. #Julian Morrison: That’s the best answer I’ve seen today :)

  22. I also haven’t read Twilight, but I’m rooting for the Blindsight vamps, at least if it’d mean I wouldn’t have to.

    Really, I’d expect some of the Blindsight vamps to turn the tables, track down the mysterious hooded man who approached them with the deal, discover the cure or how to produce anti-Euclideans themselves, and either completely ignore the Twivamps or turn them directly on to the people who were trying to have them wiped out by the Blivamps, then just live as they’d otherwise want to, improving their own lives to the best of their ability.

  23. Laur stated: “Intelligent prey can only be hunted by even more intelligent predators…”

    Sorry, no. Humans are the most intelligent lifeform on this planet, thus far, as we assert, and know,
    but humans are “hunted” by all sorts of things. Polar bears go after humans as a food source, sharks
    go after humans as a supposedly mistaken food source (is that a seal – that human on the surfboard?), even domesticated dogs gone wild go after humans as a food source.

    It is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of biological drive to feed.

    Regardless of intelligence, anything can be prey. Lions, and Tigers and Bears eat human beings because the opportunity for a flesh and blood food source arises, and not because these mammals can only be more intelligent than humans, because humans are intelligent.

    Coyotes, Dingos, Pumas, Rats, Crocs, Gators, Komodo Dragons and Big snakes hunt or prey upon humans who ended up unfortunately, being eaten. As far as I know, none of these predators and potential eat-humans-life-forms are more intelligent than human beings.

    Mosquitoes, Ticks, Fleas, Leaches and Vampire Bats “hunt” for human blood.

    Mysticeti and pinipeds are more intelligent than sharks, yet sharks hunt them as a food source. Elephants are intelligent, but lesser intelligent carnivore-predator Lions and Tigers go after them. Aren’t Tapir and Capybara more intelligent than Piranhas? Aren’t Chimpanzees and Bonobos less intelligent than humans? All three are Primates. Chimps are stronger than humans, and can inflict serious if not fatal damage to a human being, and yet humans still assert control over other Primates.

    Aren’t Jukka-Vampires Primates?

    Laur stated: “…and no amount of empathy and love would protect the stag when the wolves are closing in.”

    The stag is clearly a ruminant, an adult male deer, of lower intelligence, a lower food chain mammal while the pack of wolves are higher intelligence, carnivore predators. The stag is Bambi all grown up equipped with speed and horns to fend off, fight and flight from the wolf. The wolf is a social-pack animal that does form bonds and ties as a group and can be swayed to not be a so-called bloodthirsty predator. As in being tamed and domesticated. Was not Jukka and his kind “domesticated”?

    “We am thy freighter…we is condemning food…things…and supplies.”

    Human beings are omnivore-predator-consumer-biologically-evolved-adaptors who are not limited to one food source, like Jukka-Vampires. Is it not a possibility that human beings can find Jukka-Vampires as a viable food and energy-source? Humans have already demonstrated that they can, will, and still do eat human flesh. Human beings today eat other primates – “bush meat”.

    Visions of Soylent-Green crackers come floating to mind.

    Certainly, we would not be here as human beings of today, if our Lucy ancestors were not able to fend off the predators, and live to see another day. Humans kill other humans from time immemorial to the present day, and into the far, foreseeable future. Would not humans think to “poison the blood” in order to kill the predator?

    What motivates a camera-swinging granny to attack the huge-mongo, enraged, frothy-mouthed Grizzly bear, who is mauling her husband to death and chomping on his head? Is it purely survival instinct?
    Or is there the instinct to survive tempered by Granny’s love and bond with her husband to risk being mauled and killed herself in order to save her husband. If at all.

    Is she thinking, or feeling, that this man is her friend, buddy, lover, mate, life, that he is worth living and dying for and that she could not bear to live without him so she will either be living with him or be dead along with him, even sacrifice herself for him…so swing sister swing?

    Somehow Granny has mustered the courage and fearless attitude to become fierce super-granny, a state of being she may not even have known she possessed, until it was tested.

    She did not hesitate because of her love for her man.

    However, I suspect that the SpaceBattle Cadet who first made the “argument” may have been influenced by the January 2010 movie “Daybreakers”; a similar scenario, but utilized Twilight and Blindsight Vampires as the sides, and an Obi-Wan-Jedi-Religiously-type “mysterious hooded figure” explaining their mission of being unwillingly forced to the dark side but must fight an even
    darker side.

    “Daybreakers” is about humans turned into Vampires via a retrovirus soon finding that not only are they driving their prey, humans, to extinction, but they too are the hunted and prey, in the form of a more primal Vampire creature that devolved from them. A heroic Vampire hematologist searches for the cure to undo Vampirism and make the retrovirus afflicted “former human now Vampires” back into “humans”.

    “And if I only could,
    I’d make a deal with God,
    And I’d get him to swap our places…”
    ~ Running Up that Hill

    The terrific 2007 Kiwi movie “Perfect Creature” also comes to mind as well – “human genetic experimentation gave rise to an advanced species known as the Brotherhood” (restrained blood drinking vampiric-religiousy order monksy men).

    “Rah-rah-ah-ah-ah-Roma-Roma-ah-GaGa-ooh la la-Want your bad romance-I want your ugly-I want your disease…”

    Finally, who can forget the beautiful babe, space vampire-temptress walking around nude who literally sucked the life out of the gaga-eyed Male humans in “Life Force”? This movie seems to be a precursor to the deadly Wraith of Stargate Atlantis.

    My stance comes from the point of view that it is just not that cut and dry. It just does not boil down to either or. I am delving into the deeper. The human factor. The question was, Blindsight Vampires or Twilight Vampires? I am pulling a Captain Kirk and going for curtain number three, the Humans.

    I wonder why the fact that the Twilight Vampires are a bit “supernaturally and undead” is not mentioned. Jukka is not undead per se, although his kind was “resurrected”.

    …“we’re going to bring back a couple of humpbacks…Humpbacked, people?”…

    Why do Orcas and Leopard Seals not go after puny humans in rubbery seal-penguiny like suits? Piss Shamu off, and yes, puny human who trains him will be grabbed tooth and mouth and held underwater, but not killed and eaten. Orcas are “Killer Whales”, sentient life forms, predators and carnivores, but humans are not tempting tasty tidbits. Why not? What is the difference between a Killer Whale and a White Shark? Both go after Baleens. White Sharks have, do and will eat human beings. Is Jukka the love-child of a Killer Whale and a Great White Shark, so Flipper is indeed a tasty tidbit?

    “Kane’s son”…“I don’t know what it is, but it’s weird and pissed off”… “You get away from her, you BITCH!”…“If I were human, I believe my response would be…Go to hell…if I were human”…

    What I find interesting, is the underlying assumption that human beings of the “Twilight Earth”, not the Blindsight world, which is in the here and now, are somehow limited by their “human emotions” and would be terrified of a Jukka-Vampire. Having humanly emotions of softy squishy feelings such as love, compassion, empathy and caring does not necessarily equate to such humans being inhibited from switching into killer mode if need be.

    “Game over, man. Game over, what the f@#! are we supposed to now, huh?”…“Kobayashi Maru” …
    “Cooper! Hey, baby bear, mama bear got a corpsicle for ya!”…“You still don’t understand what you’re dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility…I admire its purity. A survivor… unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality”…“It’s a robot. Ash is a god damn robot.”…“If I only had…a brain…heart…the nerve”…“No, what you’ve done is taken God’s oldest killing machine and given it will and desire. What you’ve done is knocked us all the way to the bottom of the goddamn food chain.”…“Life’s a box of choco-lates. You never know what your going to get”…“Gas, Captain…the things got to have a tailpipe”…

    The assumption that human beings by and large would fear a Jukka-Vampire, when in the “Twilight Earth”, human beings have been subjected to all sorts of monsters, both human, literary, and movie-created, witnessing all sorts of vile, despicable, horrible acts, violence, depravity and experiences on the movie screen, internet, video game and in real life across this globe. So much so that human beings are becoming quite accustomed to it. This is not virgin territory.

    The assumption that one more likely has to be a goose-bumpingly frightening hominid predator or depraved sociopath to commit horrors.

    That human beings are not monsters.

    One can make the choice to be so if need be.

    “Sitting on a park bench, eyeing little girls with bad intent, snot running down his nose, greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes”…wondering whether…“my heart is on fire, my soul’s like a wheel that’s turnin’, my love is alive”… because… “love hurts, love scars, love wounds and mars, any heart not tough or strong enough, to take a lot of pain, love is like a cloud, it holds a lot of rain.”…and he’ll…“hold you in his arms, yeah, you can feel his disease”…while the…“red rain is pouring down, pouring down all over me”…

    The assumption that “good” human beings would not cross a line.

    …“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…or the one”…

    What human beings have over the Vampires is the ability to make a choice of self-sacrifice, to sacrifice the one for the many, or if need be, wipe everyone out in order to annihilate the monsters. Such sacrifice emanates from love, compassion, caring, empathy and humanly social connections but is unleashed when moral constraints are torn asunder.

    “Here Jonesy. Meow! Meow! Jonesy”…“You are my lucky star…”

  24. Holy shit that’s long.

  25. David Ellis said

    Just wondering: do you think near-sightedness would be an advantage for Blindsight vampires?

    Oooh. I think I’m going to steal that.


    RobertoElGrande
    said:

    Which raises the question of how they were able to overthrow humanity at the end of Blindsight. They can’t actually coordinate or cooperate, or is that something that could be moderated via electronic communications? But that, as they say in the Conan movies, is a story for another time

    And Lodore added:

    Actually, seeing as it’s the subject at hand, I wonder if Peter has any updates on State of Grace?

    Interesting you should bring that up. I expect to have news on that front within the next week or two. And Roberto, you don’t necessarily have to “cooperate” in order to act in concert…

  26. One thing I’ve always wondered: can BliVamps make more of themselves? Because it seems like the one evolutionary advantage that the Sparklers might have over the Psychos is the ability to turn humans without much work. If the Sparklers went on an all-out biting crusade, they might be able to boost their numbers enough to make a difference in the fight. Obviously, though, that might lead to a food crisis, and I don’t know what happens to Sparklers when they eat each other. Fairly impressive toxin accretion, I imagine. Vamps of all stripe must have livers of steel.

  27. Seems like they can. The video somewhere on this site shows the pharma doing it with aid from some group or other.

    If it were a PKD story, I expect that’d be the end of the process: kill or convert. Then what? Matheson?

  28. F****ck. Cannot sleep. F*****CK.

    If someone says something about the evolutionary advantages of having an insomniac in the tribe, I shall have to kill you.

    In re the topic: since they represent different subconscious fears, whether one type wampire wins depends on the speaker – whatever fear type is most salient for you, that’s the type that wins.

    Lastly, screw the wampires – what happened in court.

    Did we take out maybe the bailiff this time? Prosecutor slip on some mop water and fall over knocking himself unconscious? Chandelier fall on a lawyer?

  29. I’m going to take the heretic stance and support (gasp!) Twilight’s vampires.

    Blindsight vampires are solitary. Twilight vampires cooperate easily. That’s one advantage.
    Physically Twilight vamps are much stronger and faster than Blindsight ones.
    TWImpires can manipulate humans emotionally to help or protect them (humans who see twilight vampires are attracted to them) while Blindsight vampires will probably repel ordinary humans.
    As for intelligence, Blindsight vampires are supposed to outthink humans, but twilight vampires aren’t humans, so who knows. It’s like chess – Chess programs such as Deep Blue can beat certain chess masters, but fail miserably against others who are rated lower than those beat by said programs.
    Lastly, I would expect anyone who can survive for centuries, killing humans all the while, without being discovered, to be at least more intelligent than average and, if not paranoid, very cautious and secretive by nature.

    So basically it boils down to a debatable advantage in intelligence vs. disadvantages in almost everything else – cooperation, speed, strength, numbers. Sorry, Jukka, you may be a (much) better literary creation but you don’t stand a chance against a real supernatural vampire – especially not those of twilight, who lack the ordinary vampire drawbacks of being susceptible to sunlight, crosses, etc.

  30. Hm. But Blivamps are much, much smarter. I forgot to include the oh-so-obvious alternative to converting/eating everyone: zombification. They can scoop out half a brain, replace the rest with what they want, and, presto! Food source that does not present a problem. Similar to conversion without the nasty side-effects of having actual competition on their level.

  31. Peter, you have now officially arrived: there is a raging debate about your fictional creations vs. those of another. In the fine tradition of “Who would win, Superman or Thor?!?”, I officially welcome you to the stratosphere of geekdom. To wit:

    Blamps would totally pwn Twamps. Given the ease with which Blamps mess with the heads of cognitively augmented humans, talking those emo Twamps into suicidal self-destruction would be appallingly simple, perhaps done via text-message as an afterthought.

  32. Well, the Twamps do have one major advantage: human allies. Blamps would not except by those methods already described. Better to be feared or loved might be another way to frame the debate. Used to wonder myself, but not anymore.

  33. Chimera: Edward Cullen survived 80 years of high school. 80 years. of high school. If that didn’t cause him to commit suicide, nothing will.

  34. Indeed, the Twamps have emotionally vulnerable, largely useless teenaged girls in droves, ready to pine ineffectually and emote vacuously at their beck and call. The Blamps are doubtless overcome with fear at such fearsome allies… :D

  35. Let us not speak falsely, now. The hour is getting late.

  36. @Michael:

    Heh… You have a point, there. Still, despite his advanced years and purported intelligence, he still finds himself madly, deeply in love with an imbecile of the first rank and, in fact, is tempted to kill himself in the most ridiculous manner possible, by outing himself in the home-town of the ruling vampire council. This displays such an adolescent frame of mind that I suspect his staying in high school is not a choice made with a view to the best cover possible, so much as it offers him a life of perpetual teenaged wallowing. I still think the advantage here goes to the Blamps that thus far have betrayed no real emotional weakness.

  37. “I still think the advantage here goes to the Blamps that thus far have betrayed no real emotional weakness.”

    That IS a weakness. This is what leads to angry, torch- and stake-bearing locals who will stabbity, stab, stab and burnity, burn, burn.

  38. How so? They’ve been portrayed as being consummate manipulators. How is being a hyperintelligent psychopath with a purely instrumental valuation of their prey going to cause them problems? They don’t have to actually *feel* the same way people do to either mess with them or to simulate such feelings.

  39. First, I spoke too soon. Again, the obvious evades me. With every move, every secret hole they hide in, every time they hide their true nature, they betray a very large emotion that is ingrained in them: FEAR. Fear is the mind-killer I think someone said.

  40. I can’t believe you guys are still talking about this.

  41. This is kind of like Trekkie’s arguing over who the better captain of the Starship Enterprise was: Picard or Kirk.

    There was actually a show on SpikeTV where they would enter in physical attributes of two types of people (Viking versus mobster, or something like that.) on a computer and run 1000 or so simulations to see who really was stronger and more cunning.

    Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign to them!

  42. Kirk, dammit! :)

  43. Actually a great episode of Angel (which I also do not, not like) posed the question: who wins, astronauts or cavemen. Whedon seemed to indicate it depended on whether one was feeling optimistic or pessimistic.

  44. I understand how easy it is to dismiss the burning SpaceBattle query and merely sweep it away as lame because of all the darkly romanticized fantasy-land pining, yearning and desires by fang-struck females, however, there is a long line of myth, folktales, stories, depictions and renderings of this creature.

    Whether Vlad the Impaler, Nosferatu, Dracula, or the more modern hip –modelesque, dangerous and sensitive, great head of hair, human-lover-makes-the-girls-squeal—shriek-hyperventilate-and-faint, the fact remains there is something that has caused humans to create such a life form.

    Or is it an ancient memory of a life form remembered?

    If the question, Blindsight Vampires or Twilight Vampires, had more definitive constraints such that it was not that open to so many possibilities, as in the fact that Twilight Vampires can’t be “undead” if they are capable of impregnating a human female, and therefore it is not really “supernatural”, but just a transformed human being “evolved” into a more advanced version of homo sapiens, then it would arguably be easier to definitively state that, yes, Jukka would wup Edward’s sparkly marble butt.

    The SpaceBattle scenario also has made me question whether I am understanding the question in the first place, for it seems to me that the unwilling-Vampires to be are not Edward-Twilight Vampires but humans who are being turned into something other than that. Beyond that. Thusly they are former-humans and Jukka and his badass buddies (ok, yeah, I will allow him to be having his buds) are not humans of any sort, and are evolutionarily hominid predators, whereas Edward are former humans who do prey upon humans but more of a conscious and conscience controlled need, than an instinctive, inherent, hard-to-stop biological drive.

    My burning question is this, why would human beings, in the Blindsight World not attempt to create a Jukka-Vampire and human hybrid, such that a better “humanly life form” would thus be “invented”? There has gotta still be turkey basters in that far foreseeable dark and scary future.

    Ligons, cabbits, jack-a-lopes, zebroid (zorse, zonkey, zony), Jed (wolf-dog), cama (camel-llama), Grolor/Pizzly (grizzly-polar Bear), Leopon (leopard-lion), Wolphin (bottlenose dolphin-false killer whale), Ti-Liger (Tiger-Ligon) and jackasses, aside, why not?

    (I am sorry, but “Pizzly Bear” is a bit too cuddley-wuddley a name for something that is a product of a Polar Bear and a Grizzly Bear. Really, such a hybrid must be one pissed off ursus arctos horribilis maritimus that not only gets enraged by human beings, but must now choose whether to go after the spawning salmon and juicy berries or dine on the bipedal screamers.)

    Sure, as far as we know, there have not been any sightings of Franken-primates of a chimpmanzee, magrilla, orangu-man, lemurman, bomanbos, sort. (Excepting the abominable Mr. Yeti, of course)

    Although I do clearly recall my College Microbiology Professor describing how a girly orangutan had gotten a humanly sexual infection that was only passed via some union. I was appalled, but not at all surprised, that some human man decided to shock the monkey.

    Alright, alright, I am not speaking of, advocating, or fantasying (cough, sigh, hmm, huh, wah?) about Jukka rocking & rolling with some willing fang-struck-digs-the-badass-is-he-gonna-kill-me-creepy-scary-male-thingy human female.

    I know it is not like Mr. Neanderthal and Miss Early Modern Homo Sapiens laying down together for a night on the plush Mammoth fur-skin rug in some dark hidey hole cave by the warmth of a glowing hearth-fire.

    Besides, it has occurred to me, Peter, that you had not mentioned anything, hinting or descriptive, about the hominid predator family jewels. Not sure if it is a big thing with human females…not important…no, not at all…nothing at all…

    …however, if Blindsight humans were toying with human beings and creating the sorts as depicted in Blindsight, why not have some sort of hominid predator-human creation?

    Or better yet, have created some sort of type of human that would indeed be the “cattle” for the Jukka-Vampire, as horrible as that sounds, as some sort of safeguard to ensure that silly humans could have a way to tame the predator?

    I suppose I am thinking of animal husbandry, domestication and taming the predator. Just wondering.

    Wondering why human beings would not project-foresee the very real possible consequences of introducing something as dangerous as a purely piss-yer-pants-willy-nillies-creepy-scary hominid predator with a super-scary-cold-chiller-heebie-jeebies-intelligence into their midst without any possibility for a failsafe solution to prevent inevitable slaughter.

    Human beings have time and again made the doofus folly of introducing something into the environment only to be baffled at why it did not go as they had thought it would. Those silly guys who introduced the Mongoose to Hawaii because it was gonna go after the rats, and the two were gonna rendezvous in the sweet scented sussarating sugar cane fields for the rumble, but somehow did not realize that one was diurnal and the other nocturnal, duh.

    Now Mongeese are somewhat of an unofficial Hawaii State mammal, and Mr. Mongoose has thanked human beings so very much for introducing him to Nancy Nene, instead of expecting him to hang out with Ricky Rat (rattus rattus cannotcatchus).

    The poor endangered endemic Hawaiian Goose, the Nene, otherwise known by it’s scientificky name “Psuedocanadian notamigratorius volcanus coursicus”, which is closely related to the “Canadagiganticus goosey-us”, because it seems to spend a lot of time puttering about on the golf course in the Volcanoes National Park on the Big Island of Hawaii, as I myself have witnessed, is preyed upon by that feral swine Mr. Mongoose.

    And, so there is no misunderstanding whatsoever, if I had to choose between books, which was the keeper, it would be Blindsight. (Is that a Twilight book I see under my Mt. Fuji pile of books? Foot surreptitiously scoots it further under.)

    I am surrounded by females from the teens to fifties who speak of Edward as if they had spent the night with him in a dreamyland fog of illicit romance and hushed whispery sexual longing, and I confess, that yes, I did read that book, for how in the world was I going to have a discussion about Vampires if I could not relate to what they were going on and on and on about?

    Sorry Peter, the world of Science Fiction is not filled with a lotta people, and even fewer are into hard SciFi. So when I attempted to talk about your book, among other things vampiric, I was greeted with silence and the faint sense of something bovine-ish. But I love my science, I love my SciFi and I do especially love my SciFi hard. Otherwise my brain turns mushy-flaccid and I can feel the loss of my brain cells dissipating into the nether of progressive mental decline.

    I am much much more interested in Jukka-Vampires (and no, not what you may think via implication), in real life as it should be on Peter’s Blog, for it is not really necessary to discuss Twilight Vampires unless there is a contrasting and comparing that goes down the path in understanding the makings and workings of this hominid predator. Of Peter’s Vampire, which to me, is the most realistic and probable Vampire creation that makes sense as may have existed.

    As you are aware, many of us who just love your writings, and Blindsight, for your book is in my opinion brilliant and spot-on, and I am not just saying this because I probably added some stress to your already massive stress with what you are going through, as if you did not already have enough on your plate to deal with, I am so sorry about that and thank you for not banishing me, (there are not many hard-science sites upon which to really dig in and read and join in on that is both thought provoking and laugh-out-loud funny), but Blindsight ranks are one a very few books that are in my upper echelon of favorite books.

    I had not been that exceptionally excited about reading a book in a very long time.

    So, just as many have said, we are awaiting your next book about the Blindsight World. When you are ready and able to devote your time immersing yourself in that dark, scary world. I would wish for you to be able to spend enough time to flesh out your Siri-Jukka world in a manner that will make the finished product so sweetly shudderingly worth the wait.

  45. Speaking of Blampire reproductive strategies (ah shit — now they’ve got me doing it), I notice that no one here has picked up on the teensy fact that the critical gene that cascades into the vampire complex is on the Y-chromosome. Which means either that a) there’s been some translocation of genes between now and the good ol’ days, or b) all prehistoric vampires were male. Which has unfortunate and violent implications for “race relations”, as it were; these guys would have to both eat their prey and mate with them, depending on the mood. (It also answers the question of how mating can occur in the first place if vamps are so territorial that attack each other on sight.)

    Some of you may have noticed the appearance of a female vampire in the rough draft of Dumbspeech‘s prolog. She’s easy enough to explain (we’ve been building artificial chromosomes for years), but she begs a question that comes up early in the sidequel: why would anyone give these creatures the means to reproduce independently? The facetious answer is, obviously, “Because it’s better than the traditional alternative”.

    The real answer is something you’re going to have to wait for.

  46. So, since the BliVamps are technically humans, that means the TwiVamps can probably vampirize them. And since they tend to be good at manipulating people, they can probably manipulate the TwiVamps into vamping them, giving them both all the physical advantages and special powers of the TwiVamps, and the predator mind of the BliVamps.

  47. Peter said: “…these guys would have to both eat their prey and mate with them, depending on the mood.”

    That is what I have been thinking of. However it may more so be metaphorical rather than literal.

    Perhaps I am influenced by two other Vampiric books, George R. R. Martin’s “Fevre Dream” and Poppy Brite’s “Lost Souls”, both posited that Vampires evolved as a life form alongside humans, predator and prey, and the unfortunate consequence of birth, whether the end result of a male vampire engaging in sex with female vampire or female human, was that birth of a baby vampire was a complete and utter death sentence for the female.

    Somehow a vision of a praying mantis sexing and eating….

    Peter ended with: “The real answer is something you’re going to have to wait for.”

    Yes, please, waiting for it is so worth it, please do not tempt anymore and give freebie tidbits.

    ~Hey Soul Sister….Your lipstick stains on the front lobe of my left side brains…~

  48. I can’t believe the answer is even in doubt on this site… maybe in the Twilight Tween-verse, but not here.

    Any vamp of 2082, irritated with all the windows, would block out the sun at Chez Cullen with gallons of blood long before the pasty sissies knew what hit ‘em.

    Except this enterprising decorator would leave Alice alive, simply to watch her go nuts anticipating the many different tortures it has in store for her.

    Then it would design a superior operating system using still shots of her face as the interface.

  49. Why am I thinking that Blindsight Vampires are somehow exhibiting Scrambler brain-hacking tendencies or potentiality?

    Mutation, hidden recessive ability, evolving adaptation to circumstances that the silly human Dr. Frankenstein’s have brought raining down upon themselves?

    @Chris in NY who said: “Holy shit that’s long.” :)

    That really made me laugh, and that certainly sums it up. Sorry.

    I will do better in reining in my passionate ponderings. :P

    I can’t help it. That is how my mind works. It actually hurts my brain when I try to be short, concise and restrained. (If you are into studying brains, minds and human personality types, then you should know that I am an example of a lefthanded, right-brained, introverted, doesn’t talk much, quiet-goof, artistically gifted, Myers-Brigg INFP-“still waters run deep”, constantly called sweety by others, wondering whether she is a tad autistic cause her Dad called her the deaf-mute of the family).

    This could be what it looks like. Being in your right mind.

    Now I understand…that is why I identify with Blindsights’ warped twisty misfit humans.

    ~Hey Soul Sister…I knew I wouldn’t forget you, and so I went and let you blow my mind…~

  50. Keanani: I don’t know what subspecies you’re discussing in your comments above, but it doesn’t seem to be Blindsight vampires. Blampires are not limited to one food source: they’re omnivores, like us, but have to *supplement* their food source with human flesh (well, blood would probably do in a pinch but flesh has a higher cell density so is probably a better deal). Humans can’t “poison the blood” as vampires are looking for a protocadherin, and protocadherins are as essential to us as they are to vampires: without them we’d die (it’s not quite true to say that we’d fall apart into a bunch of independent disconnected cells, but certainly we’d be in serious trouble without a way to make cadherins).

    “Is Jukka the love-child of a Killer Whale and a Great White Shark”? No. Homo sapiens Whedonis eat humans because they have to, or die. No other primate will do, by fiat of Author. Also, vampires are described as being in part engineered from autistics and sociopaths. Mix in lack of theory of mind on one side and lack of empathy on the other and I’m not sure they’d *care* if they ate people. Does the wolf agonize over the lamb?

    Peter: sorry to be a complete bastard *again* but sex-determining chromosomes tend to *lose* genes over time, not gain them. So it’s unlikely that what you suggest would happen… but then, hell, vampires are unlikely anyway, and gene translocation onto a sex-determining chromosome certainly isn’t impossible. So, yeah, sure, a small chromosome rearrangement, you got it. :) The Y chromosome is so crappy that any translocation onto it probably wouldn’t be large enough to preclude human/vampire crosses, if you’re slash-way inclined.

    (And I haven’t encountered the idea that Blindsight vampires are especially territorial before. ISTM more likely that they’d be like sociopaths in office environments: capable of interacting, but always scheming to put *themselves* in charge. Hm, I wonder if Cardassians drink blood?)

    The real answer: vampires are smart. Some of them learnt genetic engineering. (See also the first few chapters of Attanasio’s _Centuries_ and the ‘key to the monkey tower’. It’s not a normal human who unleashes *that*, oh no.)

  51. @ Nix: “Keanani: I don’t know what subspecies you’re discussing in your comments above, but it doesn’t seem to be Blindsight vampires.”

    My bad. That is what I get for reading three books at one time. Those Vampires are in “Fevre Dream” and not “Blindsight”. :)

    “Is Jukka the love-child of a Killer Whale and a Great White Shark”?
    Lame joke- riffing on what Laur was saying but as a metaphor regarding “dolphin and shark” comparison.

    But hey, thanks for reading my wall of words…

  52. Sadly, the Twilight vampires would assuredly win.

    They have super speed, and super strength. Regardless of how lame they are and everything, they could probably dodge bullets. (or get shot, and not even slow down.) Edward could probably just run at super speed, go straight through all the (scientifically plausible) Watts vampires in a big shower of gore, and that woud be the end.
    (He would feel really bad about it afterwards, of course.)

    The difference is one author strives to make something compelling and scientifically plausible, and the other one writes what is essentially a fairy tale for teenage girls. Comparing the actual vampires, as described in the books, in terms of fighting ability, is pointless, because they exist in completely irrelevant universes.
    Superman vs. The Comedian.

  53. Point of order: I was under the impression that blampires were, in point of fact, cannibalistic rather than blood-drinking. (Though I sadly cannot recall off the protein they can’t synthesise can cross the blood-brain barrier.)

  54. Greyjoy asutely pointed out: “I was under the impression that blampires were, in point of fact, cannibalistic rather than blood-drinking.”

    “…vampires lost the ability to code for -Protocadherin Y, whose genes are found exclusively on the hominid Y chromosome6. Unable to synthesise this vital protein themselves, vampires had to obtain it from their food. Human prey thus comprised an essential component of their diet, but a relatively slow-breeding one (a unique situation, since prey usually outproduce their predators by at least an order of magnitude). Normally this dynamic would be utterly unsustainable: vampires would predate humans to extinction, and then die off themselves for lack of essential nutrients.” (Peter’s Excellent Primer on Vampire Biology, Backlist Page, this blog, and in book, Blindsight)

    Man almighty, the whole SpaceCadetBattleBlog question is just so misfired…I now agree with Leona…”who gives a rat’s ass”?

  55. On a different subject, I was in a Coles in Ottawa and they had Blindsight prominently displayed on a table at the front of the store. OK, it WAS on the discount table, but it was keeping company with books from big named authors whose books had just been released on paperback.

  56. @ Anony Mouse: You’re Ken Middlebrooke, aren’t you?

  57. Teehee, certainly didn’t expect to see this. The thread was based on an idle thought, at some godawful hour of the morning, and I’m somewhat impressed you found it.

  58. It took you long enough. And just to set the record straight, I did pay full price for my copy of Blinsight.

  59. I also saw Blindsight in the discounted book bin at… World’s Biggest Bookstore, if I recall correctly. Hopefully it’ll inspire a few more people to check it out if nothing else.

  60. Words, words, words – Twilight’s utter, UTTER shit and badly written, Blindsight’s good: though to be fair, you do like your long saucy sentences (but I don’t mind that, do it meself in fact!).

    But to compare the two is like comparing stale saline drip to group-matched blood transfusion – and I speak as a chick with no lust for the undead, and therefore probably a clearer view? {scratches head}

    Here in the UK, Twilight et al are in every single charity shop, once punters (like me) who thought “well, might be worth a read” realised their eyes were being pimped, offloaded that crud, and turned back to Robert M McCammon’s Fevre Dream – or, better yet if you want to get necro, Wright’s Manhattan Ghost Story.

    Feckin’ clumsy undefined heroines, and glittery vamps?

    I dunno if anyone’s posted it yet (been awake 39 hours, not overly given to listening) but the link from my postie name, which I have no involvement with, is ftw… would have posted it here as a link, but I dunno the roolz!

    Hljóðlegur wrote

    “If someone says something about the evolutionary advantages of having an insomniac in the tribe, I shall have to kill you.”

    Goody, because I have a non-24hour sleep/wake cycle (medically recognised, don’tcha know!) and I think there was an advantage, especially in northern climates, as with the whole “supertaster” thing.

    Beware though – I have GRAVY. And, a DOG…

  61. been awake 39 hours

    39 in a row? Holy fuck. I’d be hallucinating. Are you hallucinating?

    I think there was an advantage, especially in northern climates

    Notice I didn’t say there wasn’t an advantage to the group if one poor bastard is lying by the fire with his eyes open all night.

    What I meant was I peevsihly didn’t want to hear about it, being that poor bastard who was still awake in the absence of any carniverous nocturnal beasties. It’s one thing to be the guy who sounds the alarm when there is actual danger, quite another to realize the wakefulness is completely useless in this context.

    Still have to kill you, though. If I can get past the gravy, of course.

  62. For some unknown reason I couldn’t let this go without posting on it.

    Unfortunately based on the scenario described I’m going to have to say that the TwiVamps are going wipe out the Blindsight vamps. We might not like it that way but I think based on the described scenario it is what is most likely to happen.

    Lets look at the primary characteristics of the Blindsight vamps:

    Very, very, very smart. Probably their best advantage.
    Fast, quick and sturdy but no where near TwiVamp level.
    Easy to spot as not normal in a crowd.
    Psychotic, heartless, and vicious.
    Big time fans of human flesh.
    Work alone and don’t play well with their own kind.

    Ok, suddenly we have 200,000 of these guys who can, if they wipe out TwiVamp’s get cured. Based on their pyschology after the virus takes full hold, would they even want to be cured? Really? Went they would be living in 24/7 snack buffet? Based on their fundamental drives they are not going to have any interest in a cure and are likely to turn to plans of human farming rather than sticking to the original plan.

    Break it down, many will likely just decide to happily live and eat the humans around them. They are not going to work together so this is going to be a bunch of loners having a good time and given how smart they are they are likely going to be able to do this for a long, long time.

    Some small number will likely decide that if they want to remain at the top of the food chain they should eliminate the competition. Some will probably decide to negotiate a truce, which they will plan to break. Let’s just stick with the ones that do decide to hunt down the TwiVamps. Just what are they hunting?

    TwiVamp:

    Strong, long lived, coordinated, access to centuries of intelligence, likely infiltrated most governmental organizations at many levels.
    If they get early information about these predators and decide they are a serious threat they should have the organization abilities to find them and have them taken out or at least managed. On the other hand they might decide to capture them and use them as their own slaves.

    However, none of this is really the reason the Blindsight Vamps don’t stand an honest chance:

    The TwiVamps will win for a singular dominate reason: They can increase their numbers at any time! Basically unless the Blindsight Vamps figure out how to stop the TwiVamps from recreating themselves they are up against an army for all intensive purposes of unlimited numbers. The TwiVamps can just keep making more of themselves and keep on fighting.

    So as much as the TwiVamps are annoying and the ruthlessness of the Blindsight Vamps is seductive its not ending with the sparkly guys going down.

    Ok, good, now that I’ve written that I can stop thinking about it!

  63. For god’s sakes. Blampires win.

    People seem to be forgetting that reality (plus vampires) just isn’t like the movies. In reality, it doesn’t matter how strong or how fast you are. What matters is your ability to manipulate the system.

    Twampires are in the right places of power, and they’ve got the edge when it comes to history. But they’re still human, and limited to a human’s thinking.

    Blampires, by contrast, have the ability to NOT think of something. To live in several realities at once, and model each of them at a level of fidelity that makes the world we live in a game they’ve already played through and called checkmate on.

    Twampires have several problems. First they have to find Blampires, either directly or using humans as proxies. Then they have to kill them. They also have to ensure their own existence; they’re not going to do that by recruiting mass hordes, because they lose their anonymity, and they’ve basically increased their ranks of spear carriers who are still looking for the Blampires.

    But here’s the thing. They can’t find the Blampires. They can find out where Blampires have been, perhaps, but when they follow the trail they find themselves in elegant traps that either destroy them outright, or end up exposing themselves to some very pissed off humans looking for evil vampires. Efforts to point out that they’re the GOOD vampires are laughed off by the humans.

    Meanwhile, a series of scandals, wobbly stock transactions and odd political pressure makes things difficult for the Twampires in charge. In some situations, some Twampires seem to be profiting or playing off other Twampires. Sure, they deny it and say it’s a monstrous coincidence… but they would, wouldn’t they. I mean, how on earth would you manipulate all of those unllkely variables at once if you weren’t in power? It’s just not possible. The Twampire alliance fragments, then fractures.

    Finally, the existence of sparkly blood drinking things becomes known to the general public in the worst way possible, and the Twampires are exposed and on the run. Suddenly, Osama Bin Laden and his clown car of Al-Queda buddies are no longer the biggest threat — we have honest-to-gosh vampires. Both Republican and Democrat parties egg each other on to eliminate the Vampire threat with the use of Any And All Tools At Our Disposal. New agencies are formed, and private contractors (one of them by the name of Sukka Solutions) take up the slack, bringing in mercs and extra resources to hold down and stamp out pockets of evil Twampires.

    Finally, the world is declared safe from the Twampire threat, and humanity breathes a sigh of relief. There’s been a lot of death and suffering, and the general rate of suicide and homicide still seems seems higher than usual, but it’s statistical noise and easily ignored in the flux of health care advancements, economic good news, and scientific discoveries that seem to keep flooding in from… somewhere. Even diet improves seem to be taking hold in the heartland, with fast food and high fructose corn syrup finally becoming things of the past.

    Exercise becomes more common, and large crowds of runners can be seen every morning in every city, helping their bodies to become the fastest, strongest, heathiest they’ve ever been.

    Because, ultimately, if there’s something a Blampire likes, it’s getting some entertainment out of a meal.

  64. Seriously? Anyone who thinks these two could meet in a fight is an idiot, hands down. For one thing, Twilightland does not follow any kind of logic.

    Twilight vamps are complete idiots. They routinely leave behind mountains of corpses without any consequences whatsoever. The Volturi, who claim that keeping vampires secret is oh-so-important, kill entire groups of tourists every single day without any international incidents or anyone getting the least bit suspicious. They are literally superheroes who breed like zombies, so they logically should have wiped out or enslaved mankind a long time ago. The males can have children with humans even though they are literally made out of living ice and crack like glass when damaged. There is no rhyme or reason to their existence.

    Blindsight vamps are both logical and scientifically sound. They could never encounter meyerpires in any version of reality.